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Theistic Evolution, the Image of God, and Original Sin: Irreconcilable Differences?

     The last two points of the doctrine of creation are as follows:

 

3.  God directly created human beings in his own image and thus radically different from the rest of creation (cf. Gen. 1:26-27, 5:1, 9:6; Rom. 8:29; 1 Cor. 11:7, 15:49; Eph. 4:24; Jam. 3:9).

 

4. God created Adam and Eve as the first humans.  They are the real ancestors of the entire human race (Gen. 2:7-8, 21-25, 3:20; Rom. 5:12-21).

 

     It is here, I think, that Biblical theology comes most in conflict with macro-evolutionary ideas.  There is such a concept as “Theistic Evolution” which essentially claims that there is no necessary contradiction between Biblical theology and Darwinian-type evolution.  And, I suppose that if Darwinism is communicated in a way that doesn’t assume atheism or deism (that is, that it doesn’t contradict either of the first two points of the doctrine of Creation), then, up to that point, theistic evolutionists are correct.  One may hold to the principles of macroevolution and still believe that God not only started the process of creation but has remained involved in it throughout history.  However, points 3 and 4 are just much more difficult to reconcile with a Darwinian worldview.

     First, to be faithful to Scripture, one must believe that a radical distinction exists between humans and other forms of biological life.  There is the imago dei (the image of God) concept to contend with in the Bible.  I find it difficult to conceive of a view of humanity that preserves both the belief that humans alone are made in the image of God and that they the biological descendants of other species of primates.  Things get trickier when we move fully into point 4.  According to Scripture, Adam and Eve were made directly by God in his image.  It was an event – this creation, this bestowing of life, this depositing of the imago dei.  If you are an adherent to theistic evolutionary views, I would really like to hear your theologizing on this issue.  If humans are the product of a slow and gradual process of transmutation, when does the image of God come into play?  At what point is a human being a bearer of imago dei and thereby radically distinct from all creation?  I suppose a theistic version of punctuated equilibrium could lend a hand – which could also help us to get two real ancestors of the human race (i.e. Adam and Eve).  But I think that is really stretching credulity.

      A final word here on the importance of point 4.  You may be wondering why is it necessary to affirm that Adam and Eve really were the first humans – our real ancestors.  I know that there are some that read the first several chapters of Genesis metaphorically.  Others try to read it as a science text book.  I don’t think either approach is exegetically honest.  For example, it seems to me that reading chapter one as being about a sequence of 6 literal 24-hour periods is forcing a modern, Western, monochronic view of time upon the ancient, Middle-Eastern, and polychronic audience to which Moses was writing.  Not to mention God’s limitless ability to make what is a “day” to him seem like billions of years to everyone else (2 Pet. 3:8).  But on the other hand, metephorizing the entire contents of the early chapters of Genesis not only reduces the contents to fairytales in the worst way but also ignores the tenor with which the chapters were written.  The person who reads Genesis 1-11 can’t help but confess that the contents were meant to be believed – they were written as history.  There are ages and genealogies, measurements and boring details.  One might take the position that Genesis 1-11 isn’t true, but that it was written to be believed as actual fact seems self-evident.  Moreover, it seems clear that the New Testament authors, and Jesus himself, believed these early chapters to be genuine historical records (e.g. Mt. 23:35, 24:37, Mk. 10:6, Lk. 3:38, Rom. 5:14, 1 Cor. 15:22, 1 Tim. 2:13-14, Heb. 11:7, 1 Pet. 3:20, 1 Jn. 3:12, Jude 14).

     Of course, the biggest problem with denying our literal descent from Adam and Eve is that doing so wreaks havoc to the essential doctrine of original sin.  The doctrine teaches that Adam and Eve were made sinless, bearing the untainted image of God.  They then sinned by rebelling against God’s command, thus corrupting the nature within them.  Original sin* refers to the fact that since we are all descended from Adam, we have all inherited a sinful nature.  We are, like David, sinful from birth and conceived in iniquity (Ps. 51:5).  We are not sinners because we sin.  Rather, we sin because we are sinners by nature.  Sin and death, and with it our just condemnation, have spread to all humanity (Rom. 5:12-21).  The doctrine of original sin highlights our inherent and emphatic need of a savior.  We cannot please God, seek Him, or become justified in God’s sight apart from the free and sovereign work of His grace in our lives – without the Lord Jesus Christ (Rom. 3:9-20, Eph. 2:1-10).

     So, how can theistic evolutionists reconcile macroevolution with the doctrine of original sin?  If there wasn’t a literal Fall, if there is no literal descent from Adam, where does our sinful nature come from?  I think this is a huge problem for the concept of theistic evolution, and I cannot conceive of a way around it.  One thing is certain, that from birth human beings have an innate proclivity to sin is far more observable than the transmutation of species.   And, at the end of the day, I reject macroevolutionary principles because I don’t find the weight of evidence in favor of Darwinism so compelling as to warrant the kind of theological gymnastics that would be required for reconciling those principles with what I already know to be true – God’s infallible word.

     So that’s where I end my review of the four principles of the Biblical doctrine of creation.  This is where the apologetic battle must be fought for Christ’s sake.  Active creative theism, the imminence and transcendence of God, the imago dei, and the doctrine of original sin are pillars and essentials of the faith one for all delivered to the saints.  And it is the responsibility of every follower of Jesus to earnestly contend for and proclaim these transforming and life-giving truths (1 Pet. 3:15, Jude  3). 

     In a few weeks, we’ll examine the concept of the image of God and attempt to answer the question, “What does it mean that we are made in God’s image?”  But now for something completely different . . . .

 

[*For more on the doctrine of original sin, read “What is the Biblical Evidence for Original Sin” a brief article by John Piper.]

    

  

18 comments (Add your own)

1. Katherine wrote:
Are you going to explain why you believe God's word is infallible?

January 13, 2009 @ 1:27 AM

2. Cody wrote:
"Are you going to explain why you believe God's word is infallible?"

No.


Well, not at this point anyway. It isn't my point here that Darwinism, atheism and deism contradict the Bible and since the Bible is true we must reject Darwinism, et. al. My point is that for those who are convinced that the Bible is true, they must recognize and be ready to defend the faith on these 4 points of the doctrine of Creation. Not sure if that sentence makes sense, I'm sleepy.

Certainly getting ready to defend those points will involve being able to defend the infallibility of the Bible. That's straightforward enough and there are some great resources available. I like the Case for Christ, a book that is available in our resource store, but there are others.

January 13, 2009 @ 9:25 AM

3. trimtab wrote:
OK, so I take it you people believe in the literal truth of the bible, and that the bible is the infallible word of God.

All righty now.

Can I interest you in an allegorical interpretation of your religious texts? No? Didn't think so, either.

This would explain why you are stubbornly uninterested in what science has to say. You'd rather believe the ratio of the circumference of a circle to its diameter is three, as per the bible, rather than the irrational constant Pi (3.14159...). Fine, then. Stick to your dogma.

You must then realize the implications of your choice. You can no longer go around, complaining that scientists don't want to listen to your dogma. You can't claim that creationists are being silenced in academia, à la Ben Stein's Expelled, while your own mind is closed to the findings of science.

You don't understand evolution. Period. When it gets explained to you, you still don't get it, or don't want to get it. You misrepresent the science at every turn. You use post-modernist deflections when it's convenient. You invoke facetious and fallacious arguments on a regular basis. Everything to maintain your dogma intact.

I was hoping you were genuinely interested in seeking the truth.

I was wrong.

I've not had many exchanges with religious people in the past. My recent posts on your Web site were my first significant exchanges on this subject with people of faith. Naïvely, I thought rational discussion was possible, but I'm finding much, much harder than I thought.

To shield yourselves from having to think and be rational, you erect a wall of incommensurability, a.k.a. relativism. That immediately raises a red flag. Why? Because no knowledge is possible if it can't be shared. We can't each be on an island of knowledge, unable to share facts, experiments, conclusions, etc.

It's one thing to disagree, but what you're proposing goes much, much deeper. Your world view is anti-science. It's not just limited to negation of science in the realm of evolutionary biology, unfortunately.

It panders to dominionist/reconstructionist christian ideology, which is anti-civilization. The last thing any religious person (of any denomination) should hope for is a theocratic government. Every theocratic system of government that I know of is, or goes, bad, not just for secularists, but also for religionists in general. Such regimes always tend toward oppression of minorities, especially religious ones, toward intolerance of political ideas and dissent. And when science conflicts with theocratic dogma, it is viewed as dissent, and therefore is quashed.

Seems ironic that you would cater to an ideology that would reject your very existence.

"No, no, no! I'm not pro-theocracy," you might say. "No, no, no, I advocate tolerance and respect of others," you might object. "My religion is a religion of peace," you might protest. Be that as it may, your rejection of science is gratuitous, dishonest, and dangerous.

By fostering belief in the absence of evidence, you condone ANY kind of belief. By fostering belief in the absence of evidence in young children, you are harming them in their ability to discriminate reasonableness. Are 72 virgins an adequate sales point to justify martyrdom? Is rapture an adequate justification to accelerate global warming? Is the bible sufficient support to perform genocide?

How can you prevent belief in the absence of evidence from leading to any of these beliefs (and consequent actions)?

What's your responsibility in fomenting a culture of religious revivalism that, due to sheer numbers, can twice elect a dangerous, sub-intelligent, greedy, anti-science, literalist, war-mongering, village-idiot-in-chief? (You whom I'm talking about, right?)

This kind of blindness doesn't happen overnight. It takes inordinate amounts of uncritical thinking. Said thinking is in part due to the kind of belief in the absence of evidence that you peddle here.

I'd rather you own up and say: I accept that science is right, based on the evidence and rationale, but I choose to perform an act of akrasia (I use the philosophical acceptation of the word (non-pejorative), not the dictionary version). That would be perfectly acceptable. Or better, that you accept an allegorical interpretation of scripture, instead of a literalist (but that's a bit of a stretch, I know).

A distrust of science is common in religious folks. It is in severe need of being revised. Any, and every, argument found in Ben Stein's Expelled, explicit of tacit, is wrong. Selling it to your flock is dangerous. Raising children to believe these misguided arguments is dangerous. Like the relation between evolutionary theory and Nazism. Good grief! How uneducated must you be to believe such a thing, lock stock and barrel? I've found no evidence of any use of evolutionary theory in Hitler's writing. The word "evolution" is use by him to denote change. Instead, Hitler did use "germ theory" to justify exterminating undesirables. I don't see you attacking Pasteur and Koch, as they are explicitly referred to by Hitler. Hitler also proposed artificial selection, not natural selection. Why then attack evolutionary theory?

Your opposition to science and education is utterly unjustified. It is genuinely fundamentalist. And you commit so many errors, is becomes indistinguishable from intellectual dishonesty.

January 18, 2009 @ 11:38 AM

4. Cody wrote:
TT: "OK, so I take it you people believe in the literal truth of the bible, and that the bible is the infallible word of God."

"You people?" What are you, Rush Limbaugh? I'm not sure what you mean by "literal truth". I certainly believe that the Bible is true. And I believe it is the word of God. And, of course, if it is the word of God, the infallibility of it goes without saying. In terms of hermeneutics, I teach and personally employ what is known as the "literal principle" of literary interpretation. That is, my aim is to interpret the Bible in the way it was intended to be interpreted. That's a pretty standard principle for literary interpretation. Not the only one, but the best at getting at the original author's intention, which is what I want to do with the Bible.

TT: "Can I interest you in an allegorical interpretation of your religious texts? No? Didn't think so, either."

Well, it wouldn't make sense to interpret literature allegorically that isn't written that way. There are places in the Bible where this is appropriate, but the genre must demand it. The Bible consists of numerous different genres, each with its own rules of interpretation. To arbitrarily employ an allegorical interpretation strategy with the entire Bible is to ignore the actual style, genre, content and original intent. Why would I want to do that?


TT: "This would explain why you are stubbornly uninterested in what science has to say. You'd rather believe the ratio of the circumference of a circle to its diameter is three, as per the bible, rather than the irrational constant Pi (3.14159...). Fine, then. Stick to your dogma."

I don't know what you are talking about here.

TT: "You must then realize the implications of your choice. You can no longer go around, complaining that scientists don't want to listen to your dogma. You can't claim that creationists are being silenced in academia, à la Ben Stein's Expelled, while your own mind is closed to the findings of science."

I'm not sure at what point you made this leap. But, okay. I mean, I can claim what I want. You certainly don't have to agree. That's your call.

TT: "You don't understand evolution. Period. When it gets explained to you, you still don't get it, or don't want to get it. You misrepresent the science at every turn."

I have admitted up front that I'm no biologist. But, for a layman, I think I do okay. I have no intention of misrepresenting anything. I have honest doubts, most of which (as I have sought to explain) don't necessarily conflict with my theological beliefs. I'm not sure what is wrong about having honest doubts and communicating those. If and when I get things wrong, I welcome correction and, if necessary, debate. And, I'm happy to leave my corrector/detractor's comments posted here on my very own blog. As long as you are nice.

TT: "You use post-modernist deflections when it's convenient. You invoke facetious and fallacious arguments on a regular basis. Everything to maintain your dogma intact."

You'll have to show me what is "post-modern" about my debate. Not that I accept the premise that a "post-modern" idea is necessarily invalid. It could be possible, you know, that I just have some honest questions I don't feel like people take serious enough to try to answer. Anyway, I think you invoked the term post-modern previously when we were talking about notions of objectivity and subjectivity. I was trying to make the point that all knowledge is inherently subjective. But I don't want to make that point out of some kind of post-modern relativistic mindset. Rather, I wanted to highlight the immense value of subjective data. In my field, we distinguish between quantitative and qualitative data. I've conducted major research projects using combinations of both types. It is my opinion that qualitative (that most subjective of the two types) is immensely valuable information. I object in what seems to me to be a rather quick dismissal of subjective data on your part with regards to, say, thaumaturgical phenomenon.

TT: "I was hoping you were genuinely interested in seeking the truth.

I was wrong."

I disagree with your conclusion.

TT: "I've not had many exchanges with religious people in the past. My recent posts on your Web site were my first significant exchanges on this subject with people of faith. Naïvely, I thought rational discussion was possible, but I'm finding much, much harder than I thought."

I am truly glad that you've visited and provided the feedback that you have. I think it is valuable. Moreover, I think our discussions have be meaningful and even somewhat rational. Of course, if your expectation was that I was going to quickly agree with your arguments or even your foundational assumptions, you were mistaken.

TT: "To shield yourselves from having to think and be rational, you erect a wall of incommensurability, a.k.a. relativism. That immediately raises a red flag. Why? Because no knowledge is possible if it can't be shared. We can't each be on an island of knowledge, unable to share facts, experiments, conclusions, etc."

If you look carefully, I have not advocated (nor do I believe in) relativism (if by that we mean something like, there is no truth). Again, what I disagree with is a blanket dismissal of subjective/qualitative data. I also wanted to dig a bit at the foundations upon which your "rules of science" were built. In doing so, it is my very point that an ultimate ground of truth is needed in order to avoid relativism. It is my opinion that naturalism does not provide one.

TT: "It's one thing to disagree, but what you're proposing goes much, much deeper. Your world view is anti-science. It's not just limited to negation of science in the realm of evolutionary biology, unfortunately."

Well, at least I've graduated from pseudo-science to anti-science. For the record, I disagree. I don't think my views are anti-science, because I have no interest in putting an end to the study of natural science. I disagree with much of what is put forth under the label "evolution." That is, I find it unconvincing, and I don't find my questions get answered. Most of these points of disagreement (as I've tried to make clear in the articles) don't necessarily clash with my theological beliefs. Of course, where they do, I will err on the side of my relationship with a Savior who has never failed me yet. I'm not sure why that should upset you, but okay. At the end of the day, it is precisely at those points of tension that I find the arguments for materialism, deism, atheism, human macroevolution least compelling. I am aware of the arguments (though I don't spend a whole lot of time on them), but they don't make me feel nervous or anything. I don't feel the need to hide or re-theologize at this point - some do though.

TT: "It panders to dominionist/reconstructionist christian ideology, which is anti-civilization."

You know, historically, the big criticism with Christendom is that it is too pro-civilization. But, your a trailblazer and I respect that. Anyway, I'm not consciously pandering to anyone. I'm reflecting theologically on the doctrine of Creation and trying to help Christians discern how the key principles of this doctrine relate to issues such as evolution, atheism, deism, materialism, etc. And, about being "anti-civilization" - well, what is civilization anyway? Have we established with any certainty that we all should be FOR it?

TT: "The last thing any religious person (of any denomination) should hope for is a theocratic government. Every theocratic system of government that I know of is, or goes, bad, not just for secularists, but also for religionists in general. Such regimes always tend toward oppression of minorities, especially religious ones, toward intolerance of political ideas and dissent. And when science conflicts with theocratic dogma, it is viewed as dissent, and therefore is quashed."

Well, first, I haven't and don't hope for a theocratic system of government. Remember that I've been the big academic freedom proponent here from the beginning. I disagree with the notion that teaching intelligent design in an academic setting is tantamount to the establishment of a religion - let alone the establishment of a theocracy. And historically speaking, there is no unusual correlation between theocratic governments and despotism. I mean, most of the famous despots of the last century have led secularized governments - e.g. Hitler, Stalin, Saddam Hussein, Kim Jong-il, etc. The Ayatollah is a notable exception. If you get more ancient you have more examples of what may be considered theocratic despots, but then there were just more theocratic governments also - and just more despotism as a general rule of governance.

TT: "Seems ironic that you would cater to an ideology that would reject your very existence."

I suppose that would be ironic if I were catering to an ideology. But I am not consciously doing so. I'm rather trying to express honestly my own views.

TT: "No, no, no! I'm not pro-theocracy," you might say.

Well, I like to think I write with more flair, but yeah. I'm not pro-theocracy in this day and age.

TT: "No, no, no, I advocate tolerance and respect of others," you might object. "My religion is a religion of peace," you might protest. Be that as it may, your rejection of science is gratuitous, dishonest, and dangerous.

Wow! Dangerous.

TT: "By fostering belief in the absence of evidence, you condone ANY kind of belief."

Or, no kind of belief - logically speaking. But this presumes that I'm suggesting that there is no such thing as evidence. On the contrary, I have been advocating a position would grant significant place for qualitative/subjective data in our research.

TT: By fostering belief in the absence of evidence in young children, you are harming them in their ability to discriminate reasonableness.

No, not the children. But seriously folks, you've built quite a lot on the assumption that I deny the existence of meaningful data/evidence. Hopefully by now, it is abundantly clear that I do not. I think data exists in quantitative and qualitative forms. I am against dismissing either and would warn against promoting one form to a place of prominence over against the other.

TT: "Are 72 virgins an adequate sales point to justify martyrdom?"

Well, unfortunately, it does seem pretty effective.


TT: "Is rapture an adequate justification to accelerate global warming?"

I'm not even sure what this means. So, are you aware of people that are trying to hurry up with the whole boiling the earth thing so that they can get it done before Jesus comes back?

TT: "Is the bible sufficient support to perform genocide?"

Can you provide some exegetical support for the notion that the Bible calls upon Christians to commit genocide?

TT: "How can you prevent belief in the absence of evidence from leading to any of these beliefs (and consequent actions)?"

I'll assume by now you realize that I'm don't believe in the "absence of evidence" and move on to . . . Hitler, Stalin - genocidal? Yes. Atheist? Yes. In the 20th (and the 21st is not shaping up much better) century, the bloodiest regimes have not been the religious ones.

TT: "What's your responsibility in fomenting a culture of religious revivalism that, due to sheer numbers, can twice elect a dangerous, sub-intelligent, greedy, anti-science, literalist, war-mongering, village-idiot-in-chief? (You whom I'm talking about, right?)"

Oh, my. Really? I mean do you honestly feel like you are engaging in high-minded debate now? Do you honestly have a problem with "sheer numbers" being able to elect a president in this country? Do you think our elections should be run a different way? So you are against theocracy (so am I), but now you are against democracy? I'll have to part company with you on that one. And now, it seems to me that you think of me as a post-modernist, young-earther, religious fundamentalist, polluting, ignorant, Republican. This is your rationalism? This is your tolerance?

TT: "This kind of blindness doesn't happen overnight. It takes inordinate amounts of uncritical thinking."

Thanks, we work hard at it. There are schools you know.

TT: "Said thinking is in part due to the kind of belief in the absence of evidence that you peddle here."

Wow, I wish you hadn't blown me off before with your post-modernist comment. We would have saved some time.

TT: I'd rather you own up and say: I accept that science is right, based on the evidence and rationale, but I choose to perform an act of akrasia (I use the philosophical acceptation of the word (non-pejorative), not the dictionary version). That would be perfectly acceptable. Or better, that you accept an allegorical interpretation of scripture, instead of a literalist (but that's a bit of a stretch, I know)."

I can't imagine a situation in which I would ever take the word akrasia as a personal slight. Thanks for outlining my choices of acceptable belief. I'm really glad I have two whole choices in your system. Let me make sure I understand - I can "accept that science it right" and just call my faith a crazy little religious thing I do on the weekends. Or I can let you tell me what I can and cannot believe in the Bible. No, wait, Stalin? Is that you?

Sorry to get a so sarcastic hear at the end. I'm tired. Have had a busy couple days. I understand that you have some genuine concerns and honest questions. Your are a real person and I think you are probably sincere in your statements. I disagree with you on a lot of fronts and I think you tend to belittle my faith and assume quite a lot about me that isn't true. I'm not upset about that, but just want you to know that's how it comes across. I wish you could take time to consider that I might actually have genuine concerns and questions myself. That perhaps I'm not just playing games on engaging in willful ignorance. Perhaps I do think about these things intently and have come to different conclusions.

Okay, really should go to be now.

Peace.

January 18, 2009 @ 11:34 PM

5. trimtab wrote:
“That is, my aim is to interpret the Bible in the way it was intended to be interpreted.”

How was the bible intended to be interpreted? Please site references as to how the authors of the bible intended to be interpreted.

“To arbitrarily employ an allegorical interpretation strategy with the entire Bible is to ignore the actual style, genre, content and original intent.”

What was the original intent? And with what certainty do you know this?

“I don't know what you are talking about here.”

I Kings 7:23-26

“You'll have to show me what is "post-modern" about my debate. Not that I accept the premise that a "post-modern" idea is necessarily invalid. It could be possible, you know, that I just have some honest questions I don't feel like people take serious enough to try to answer. Anyway, I think you invoked the term post-modern previously when we were talking about notions of objectivity and subjectivity. I was trying to make the point that all knowledge is inherently subjective. But I don't want to make that point out of some kind of post-modern relativistic mindset. Rather, I wanted to highlight the immense value of subjective data. In my field, we distinguish between quantitative and qualitative data. I've conducted major research projects using combinations of both types. It is my opinion that qualitative (that most subjective of the two types) is immensely valuable information. I object in what seems to me to be a rather quick dismissal of subjective data on your part with regards to, say, thaumaturgical phenomenon.”

Post-modernism/structuralism, as espoused in social sciences and humanities in academia, briefly stated, tends to affirm that all forms of knowledge acquisition (and the knowledge they produce) are of equal merit and value. So folk-science, alternative-medicine, religious beliefs, history, supernaturalism, feminist-science, shamanism, etc., are all equal. The premiss that science and the scientific method can achieve the production of qualitatively different/better/superior knowledge is rejected. The reason often invoked is the incommensurability of knowledge derived by any two systems of knowledge production. Science (and its practitioners) claims to be able to know with greater certainty than any currently available mode of knowledge production. Post-modernists dispute that.

As for subjectivity, as opposed to objectivity, since our senses mediate our access to “reality”, cutting us off from the perceptions of others, it’s all we have. But we can expand our subjective point of view by learning from the subjective experiences of others, by studying them, by setting up experiments, controlling our subjectiveness as well as that of others, and building a common ground. It’s not always easy, but science allows us to achieve objectivity quite effectively.

On the issue of qualitative vs. quantitative data, let’s not confuse qualitative with subjective. A purely subjective experience, like feeling better, or a private miraculous apparition, is difficult to investigate, but it is nonetheless a real perception (assuming we discount deception). Whether one or 3 billion people have such subjective experiences cannot be denied, even by science.

How much can I trust someone who tells me “I feel better” or “God spoke to me”? Science attempts to make subjective experiences objective by finding data beyond what the subject tells them. You, Cody, on the other hand, seem content with face value affirmations. Someone claims “I saw God,” and you say what? “Therefore God exists”; “Of course you saw God, he exists”; or “Three billion people can’t be wrong, therefore God exists.” Theses last three hypothetical responses are not scientific. Science would not infer the existence of something by simple affirmation. You, apparently do. And that’s fine, but let’s not call call that scientific.

“I am truly glad that you've visited and provided the feedback that you have. I think it is valuable. Moreover, I think our discussions have be meaningful and even somewhat rational. Of course, if your expectation was that I was going to quickly agree with your arguments or even your foundational assumptions, you were mistaken.”

After numerous exchanges, I still don’t know why you believe ID should be taught in schools. Is ID a scientific theory? Yes or no? And why? I still don’t understand why you approve of Expelled. The entire scientific community has rejected ID/creationism, on the basis that it was absolutely not science. Do you believe this to be a conspiracy against academics who wish to teach ID in school? Do you believe rejection by peer-reviewed journals of ID-related articles is conspiratorial? Do you believe that what gets taught in school must respect the free-speech rights of teachers? Can just about anything be defined as science? Who gets to say?

“Again, what I disagree with is a blanket dismissal of subjective/qualitative data.”

Subjective/qualitative data is extremely useful, but it’s just data. What you want is an explanation of said data, but that explanation can’t be subjective. If it is, then it’s not science. That’s my point. What’s yours? The entire scientific community has been telling the ID/creationnist movement that their beliefs are not objective, that their frameworks are wrong, and that no knowledge has, can, and will come out of their approach because it is not scientific.

Many areas of scientific enquiry use similar methodologies. Some foundational requirements may differ, but many are the same. The scientific community believes that ID diverges considerably in this respect. It believes that ID employs a radically divergent methods of knowledge/truth generation. Question: can these methods be applied to other fields of study than abiogenesis? E.g., can this departure from the methods of science be applied to medicine? Physics? Chemistry? Anthropology? History? Has it been applied? If so, what were the results? Have there been any explanations? Predictions? Confirmation? What discoveries have transpired? What knowledge have we been able to generate through ID-like methodologies?

“I also wanted to dig a bit at the foundations upon which your "rules of science" were built. In doing so, it is my very point that an ultimate ground of truth is needed in order to avoid relativism. It is my opinion that naturalism does not provide one.”

Without this “ultimate ground of truth,” are you saying that the results of science are relative? I contend that such a requirement is not necessary for the establishment of knowledge, the certainty of which can be ascertained with great precision and reliability. I contend that ID has produced no knowledge whatsoever and that its methodologies are not conducive to the production of knowledge in abiogenesis or any other field of enquiry to which they may be applied.

Would you care to refute my claims?

“Most of these points of disagreement (as I've tried to make clear in the articles) don't necessarily clash with my theological beliefs. Of course, where they do, I will err on the side of my relationship with a Savior who has never failed me yet.”

Evidence be damned! Scientists don’t have that luxury. Yet, the discounting of evidence in favor of dogma is what you’d like to promote in academia and in public schools, because that’s what threatens least you relation with your “Savior who has never failed me yet.”

“And historically speaking, there is no unusual correlation between theocratic governments and despotism. I mean, most of the famous despots of the last century have led secularized governments - e.g. Hitler, Stalin, Saddam Hussein, Kim Jong-il, etc.”

An old canard. Hitler was a messed up Christian, while Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot were said to be atheists. But, first, note that none of these people did what they did in the name of atheism. Second, these individuals were highly dogmatic and successfully established quasi-religions of their own, based not on theistic entities, but on sociological or political dogma, and the cult of their personality.

The US under George W. Bush tended toward theocratic government (going to war because God told him to!?; what the hell is Congress for?). Much of the Muslim world is theocracy-leaning. Modern examples abound.

“But this presumes that I'm suggesting that there is no such thing as evidence. On the contrary, I have been advocating a position would grant significant place for qualitative/subjective data in our research.”

The importance you assign to “qualitative/subjective data” is not shared by science exactly because doing so does not yield the results that otherwise contribute to establishing its track record.

“But seriously folks, you've built quite a lot on the assumption that I deny the existence of meaningful data/evidence.”

Again, it’s not the meaningful data/evidence that’s the problem, but rather how you can objectively derive conclusions and explanations from them.

“I think data exists in quantitative and qualitative forms. I am against dismissing either and would warn against promoting one form to a place of prominence over against the other.”

You’re confusing objective/subjective vs. qualitative/quantitative. In this matrix of attribute pairs, some are arguably, and demonstrably, more reliable than others. Your modern medicine is not something you want to mess with, for starters. Yet, the methods of science privileging certain data attributes, at the exclusion of others--as in medicine--are found in many other scientific disciplines that also yield wild successes. Coincidence? I think not! ID, being unable to yield any results, seems to have made a different choice in this respect. No coincidence, either. What else can you get from arguments from personal incredulity? Being personally incredulous is a subjective/qualitative datum, therefore an intelligent agent consciously designed life on earth and pooffed it all into existence, in six days. Very scientific, in a post-modernistic kind of way.

“I'm not even sure what this means. So, are you aware of people that are trying to hurry up with the whole boiling the earth thing so that they can get it done before Jesus comes back?”

As a matter of fact, yes, and most of them can be found in your country!

“Can you provide some exegetical support for the notion that the Bible calls upon Christians to commit genocide?”

Don’t know if the calling is direct, but the stories contained in the bible seem to promote an ethic of cleansing.

“I'll assume by now you realize that I'm don't believe in the "absence of evidence" and move on to . . . Hitler, Stalin - genocidal? Yes. Atheist? Yes. In the 20th (and the 21st is not shaping up much better) century, the bloodiest regimes have not been the religious ones.”

Good. Religious leaders are dogmatic, check. Hitler was dogmatic, check. Stalin was dogmatic, check. Mao was dogmatic, check. Pol Pot was dogmatic, check. George W. Bush is dogmatic, check.

Personally, I think atheism is consistent with adogmatism. Any atheist failing in this respect is not worthy of the title. Stalin and co. may have been non-theistic, they nonetheless espoused a different kind of religion.

“Do you honestly have a problem with "sheer numbers" being able to elect a president in this country? Do you think our elections should be run a different way? So you are against theocracy (so am I), but now you are against democracy?”

Sad inference. No, democracy is fine by me. But you are aware that an educated citizenry is necessary for true democracy to survive. When your youth are assaulted by corporate-leaning and republican-leaning media, when dissent is discouraged as unpatriotic, when science is rejected in favor of party ideology, when science education is compromised by non-scientific alternative hypotheses, when “anti-elitism” gives rise to a culture of mediocrity, you wind up with the choices you got. Sure, it’s democratic, but Bush was not the best you could have done. Education pays, and proper education pays more, but belief in the absence of evidence is sure to bite you, sooner or later. Looks like it was sooner for you in the US, unfortunately.

“This is your rationalism? This is your tolerance?”

I can justify my accusations with rational arguments just fine, and continue to do so if you’ll allow me. As for tolerance, are you saying that criticism is a form of intolerance? That’s like calling dissent unpatriotic. I’m very critical of belief in the absence of evidence when doing so is used to further degrade the educational content that relies on belief in the presence of evidence. Sorry if this offends you and if I’m accusing you of directly or indirectly harming others for doing so.

Look for evidence from the ID crowd, none is available. Yet, you support ID. You applaud Expelled, and approve of the teaching of ID to kids. You wrongly equate atheism with totalitarianism, nazism, Stalinism, genocide, etc. And your understanding of evolution seem rather weak. What do you expect?

“Let me make sure I understand - I can "accept that science it right" and just call my faith a crazy little religious thing I do on the weekends. Or I can let you tell me what I can and cannot believe in the Bible.”

Just seemed fitting, considering you seem to feel no compunction at the idea of telling scientists what is or isn’t scientific. Or peddling to your flock what you feel they should accept as scientific on the basis of your misguided notions of science.

Maybe I do assume quite a lot about you that isn’t true, but the concerns I have stem from the articles you wrote and the responses you gave me. Maybe I didn’t ask the right question, or ask them the right way. Or my understanding of your answers is deficient.

January 20, 2009 @ 1:54 AM

6. Katherine wrote:
Wow -- those are some long posts...

trimtab, I'm sorry you feel like this discussion is no longer rational and that we are not genuinely interested in the truth. Please take my word that I am genuinely interested in knowing the truth and that I am trying to discuss things in a rational way.

I think our worldviews are so different that I need to find where the common ground is first (that's why I tried the Venn diagrams -- but I think you weren't even sure about drawing the circle for Truth and maybe you wanted to make the biggest circle Science, so I've been trying to figure out how to address that. That and I have a bunch of work I need to do before the end of the month). Please be patient a bit longer.

What is the best book on modern evolutionary theory that you know? (I find the link-clicking on Wikipedia annoying and the articles are not as in depth as I would like.) I don't think we should read only things we agree with, which is why I would like to read more. I would have guessed something by Dawkins or Gould, but you seem to disagree with some of their ideas (is that right?).

Cody, the TT's you put at the beginning of quotes were very helpful in trying to follow the discussion.

January 20, 2009 @ 1:37 PM

7. trimtab wrote:
Katherine,

I would suggest another Web site before you go for books. the following

http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evosite/evo101/

has the advantage of being modern, succinct, and covers pretty much all the bases, while being structured and providing a step-by-step flow, with additional material should you wish to read more in depth material on a particular topic.)

There are also excellent books; try first

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Theory_of_Evolution

then maybe

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Structure_of_Evolutionary_Theory

If these don't appeal, there are other options.

January 20, 2009 @ 4:56 PM

8. Cody wrote:
Bit of a time crunch, so real fast . . .

TT: "How was the bible intended to be interpreted? Please site references as to how the authors of the bible intended to be interpreted . . . . What was the original intent? And with what certainty do you know this?"

This is a bit of a broad question to ask. There are dozens of Biblical authors employing different genres in different contexts. I am happy to discuss Biblical hermeneutics with you, but you'd have to be more specific about your question if this is really a subject that you are interested in. As for certainty, I'm not sure how to meaningfully answer the question of "how certain are you". How about "3"? Or "quite."

I do stand by my statement and repeat it here because it is carefully crafted may deserve a second look -- there are a couple key words in it that your response suggests you may have missed:

“To arbitrarily employ an allegorical interpretation strategy with the entire Bible is to ignore the actual style, genre, content and original intent.”

Finally, then I have to do some other things, you referenced 1Kings 7:23-26, I presume as a proof that the Bible doesn't understand the concept of pi. I suspect that you base this on the fact that this description of cast metal "sea" in Solomon's temple was 10 cubits in diameter and 30 in circumference.

My first response is that the basic unit of measurement, a cubit, wasn't exactly what modern mathematicians would consider precise. It was basically the length of a man's arm from finger tip to elbow. I think it was the Babylonians who really started standardizing it - that's post Solomon.

So, from the perspective of historic cultural anthropology, I can't imagine the United Kingdom-era Israelites having any means of calculating PI to the inth degree. I suspect that they ran a line around the circumference of the "sea" and then stretched it out and measured it in cubits. Perhaps they had some kind of cubit stick or they just used ol' Ben's forearm. In doing this, they may have noticed that it was a little more than 30 cubits, or they may not have. They may have rounded down and just wrote 30. In any case, no Israelite at the time would have seen this as anything other than accurate. Plus, numbers had more significance to the ancient Israelites that their mere mathematical value. You can't just have a major temple furnishing that is 9X30 or 10X31. The numbers communicate ideas like completeness, balance, beauty, perfection, etc. Much more could be said about that. My point is that you have to look at this not as a mathematical but as a religious statement.

Besides, have you ever tried writing 31.4159265358979323846ff in Hebrew?

January 22, 2009 @ 9:37 PM

9. Katherine wrote:
_The Structure of Evolutionary Theory_ by Stephen Jay Gould is really long. If I finish reading it, it might be the longest thing I have ever read (and I've read the _Bible_, _Les Miserables_ including the sewer chapter and _Atlas Shrugged_).

So far, I have read about the Duomo. Yeah, it's going to be a while...

What I am concerned about is that I don't think this massive book will address my questions about the definition of science (you know, the philosophy of science stuff).

January 23, 2009 @ 10:23 AM

10. trimtab wrote:
C: "My first response is that the basic unit of measurement, a cubit, wasn't exactly what modern mathematicians would consider precise. It was basically the length of a man's arm from finger tip to elbow. I think it was the Babylonians who really started standardizing it - that's post Solomon."

Approximations to within 1% of Pi were known around 1900BC. That's roughly 1000 years before Solomon, if I'm not mistaken. But really, the bible, the inerrant word of god, can only muster "3"? That's 4.6% off the mark.

You attribute this "error" to lack of sophistication on the part of the authors of this book. But you do not see the wrong-headedness of genesis? Or the numerous inconsistencies in the bible?

January 23, 2009 @ 10:45 PM

11. Cody wrote:
Your representation of my response on the 1Kings verse is incorrect. Sophistication is not the issue at all. This is an issue that relates entirely to cultural anthropology and especially to issues related to polychronism. This isn't an error from the perspective of the author's and original audience's perspective, first because it was a religious and not a mathematical statement and second because it really was 10X30 cubits (when one keeps in mind what a "cubit" was, a standard of measurement with inherent flexibility built into it).

Sorry, I've got to move on.

January 23, 2009 @ 11:11 PM

12. trimtab wrote:
Katherine,

You should not start with Gould's book either. The first web link I gave you (http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evosite/evo101/) was a better introduction to evolution. But if your appetite is for philosophy of science, I know you don't like Wikipedia, with all those links sending you off here and there, still, you should take a look at:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophy_of_science

or

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falsifiability

or

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/pseudo-science/

Note that there is much debate within philosophy of science, yet, surprisingly, much consensus as to what isn't scientific vs. what is.

January 24, 2009 @ 12:05 AM

13. Katherine wrote:
Thank you for the links, trimtab. I had actually already looked at all those except the Stanford one (which I found thoughtful and helpful).

I am still trying to learn more about the philosophy of science but here are my hang-ups right now: I am still trying to understand how something can be deemed non-science when the definition of science is unclear.

You see the debate within philosophy of science over demarcation criteria yet consensus as to what is science and not as a point for you. But let me spin it this way: what if these philosophers of science are trying to come up with demarcation criteria that include A, B and C as science and exclude D, E and F? Chemistry must fit in the definition; astrology must not. If these philosophers are starting with the different fields (for lack of better term) in order to come up with their criteria, that would easily explain the debate yet consensus.

Maybe that's a wacky conspiracy-theory kind of spin, but see how it would be so much easier to have a solid definition of science?

Is science defined by a method of trying to learn about the world? Is it defined by the subject matter it is trying to study? Is it some combo?

As I tried to express with the Venn diagrams before, I believe most people would define science in schools based upon the subject matter studied. Science is the class period when you study animals, protons and rolling objects as opposed to the one where you read about stories dead people wrote or the one where you learn about circles and solve for x.

The definition of science characterized by some with the 7 criteria of being scientific seems more based on how certain subjects are studied. As in, let's study animals, protons and rolling objects in a certain way. I can see how these criteria can be helpful for the academic discipline, in the same way official world records for sports have to be observed at certain venues/events. As I tried to say before, that there is a difference between these two ideas of science is significant in the the ID debate.

Maybe we just need to invent new words to express the different definitions of science.

January 26, 2009 @ 3:53 PM

14. trimtab wrote:
Katherine wrote:

"Is science defined by a method of trying to learn about the world?"

Yes. It is a set of practices, heuristics and other a priori rules that have given humans a way to successfully avoid fooling themselves.

"Is it defined by the subject matter it is trying to study? Is it some combo?"

Any subject matter will do. However, ultimately, said subject matter must be amenable to direct or indirect mediation by the senses. Is must be objective (others must able to detect the facts of the matter). Replication is essential. A priori impossibility of falsification is considered a show stopper (and although there are problems with falsifiability in some cases, it is still an excellent standard).

"The definition of science characterized by some with the 7 criteria of being scientific seems more based on how certain subjects are studied. As in, let's study animals, protons and rolling objects in a certain way. I can see how these criteria can be helpful for the academic discipline, in the same way official world records for sports have to be observed at certain venues/events. "

There certainly is a difference between the teaching of language (as a first or second language) and teaching the origin of language. One is the dissemination of information (mostly data), whereas the other is scientific (it tries to explain something about the natural world). Many disciplines are not scientific per se, but constitute useful bodies of knowledge, or, at least, are not taught scientifically, e.g. history, English, geography.

"Maybe we just need to invent new words to express the different definitions of science."

I really don't think so. We really should be able to differentiate between what is scientific and what is not, otherwise we'll end up with different definitions of what it means to know. Besides, IDers don't pretend to have derived an ontologically different form of knowledge, incommensurable with the rest of the scientific establishment. Post-modernists and the like tend to go there, e.g. "feminist science." But according to science, there is no such thing, and there shouldn't be. That would be like rejecting the law of non-contradiction: the ramification are profound, and not very positive.

To go back to what you said earlier:

"I am still trying to understand how something can be deemed non-science when the definition of science is unclear."

It is a pickle. Think of notions like justice, good, bad, and truth. These are notoriously difficult to pin down. Have always been and still are. Yet, we have functional legal systems and ethical systems, and we all strive for the truth, in one form or another, with various degrees of success. Science is like that, but much, much better: theories can be validated! Maybe not in your lifetime for some questions or objects of study, but for the most part, you can get highly reliable scientific predictions from many theories. For most theories, a single falsification of core tenets would cause their collapse. Some theories, like evolution, have preserved the integrity of their core tenets against 150 year's worth of assaults, and have made countless verified predictions, and have been confirmed by numerous other scientific disciplines. You couldn't get anywhere near these results if the theory didn't have some measure of truth to it.

What does ID have to offer? Zip. We're still waiting for the first instance of verifiable empirical support.

January 27, 2009 @ 1:17 AM

15. Katherine wrote:
Quick comment just to clarify -- "Some theories . . . have made countless verified predictions" -- by this, you mean predictions in the scientific method sense (as in, based on evolutionary theory, we can predict we will find fossils for transitional species) and not so much the crystal-ball predictions (as in, based on evolutionary theory, we can predict humans will have superpowers like on "Heroes") -- is that right?

January 29, 2009 @ 11:24 PM

16. trimtab wrote:
K wrote:
"... by this, you mean predictions in the scientific method sense... is that right?"

Yes.

January 30, 2009 @ 4:57 PM

17. Katherine wrote:
What do you mean by "truth" being "notoriously difficult to pin down"?More precisely, what do you mean by "truth" and why is it difficult to pin down?

January 31, 2009 @ 8:00 PM

18. trimtab wrote:
Katherine wrote:

"What do you mean by "truth" being "notoriously difficult to pin down"? More precisely, what do you mean by "truth" and why is it difficult to pin down?"

That's my point. There are many different ways of answering the question of "what is true". It seems to be difficult to pin down because not everyone agrees on an exact definition. Exact definitions get shot down easily. The history of philosophy is strewn with the cadavers of truth definitions.

Yet, we all have a vague common notion of what it is. We all seek it. We all prefer it over deceit, at least most of the time, at least most of us (or do we?). Many prefer having Nature tell us what is the truth. Nature will tell us the truth, regardless of our ability to fool ourselves. Scientists use Nature as a better judge of what is, and what is true.

The truth thus derived by scientists is not absolute, but it's not post-modernly relative either.

To get a feel for just how difficult it can be to define truth, take a look at
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Truth

February 1, 2009 @ 12:58 AM

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